63 replies to this topic

[shoogalumps]

I think there's a lot of disinformation spread about libertarianism, by the proponents of the nanny state that it is some sort of every man for himself system when it is not. It brings families together and espouses community spirit - the drivers behind such things as Victorian era co-ops, building societies, patronage, philanthropy and the like. Things which are largely extinct today because of the evolution of the mess of a political and economic system we live in today.

The people can't be trusted any more than politicians or corporations.

Yet eBay is a system built on, and thrives because of, the mutual trust of millions.

Edited by shoogalumps, 07 May 2014 - 10:38 pm.

[shoogalumps]

I have no idea why anyone would vote for a blatantly totalitarian party, putting the fact that they are racist aside.

[Braeker]

I think there's a lot of disinformation spread about libertarianism, by the proponents of the nanny state that it is some sort of every man for himself system when it is not. It brings families together and espouses community spirit - the drivers behind such things as Victorian era co-ops, building societies, patronage, philanthropy and the like. Things which are largely extinct today because of the evolution of the mess of a political and economic system we live in today.
Yet eBay is a system built on, and thrives because of, the mutual trust of millions.

 

i agree, in part with that, however i'd consider eBay a bad example, Paypal i would say is the trusted system, eBay is more of a search engine :/, and paypal is not based on trust between buyer and seller, but trust in them that they will throw the hammer at the party that doesn't hold up their end of the agreement. 

[shoogalumps]

PayPal is like a debit card. In eBay a buyer puts total faith in the seller sending the item after he has paid. Sure there are bad apples but in the vast majority of cases people fulfil their end of the bargain.

Most politicians and corporate big wigs either have narcissistic personality disorder or are blatant sociopaths. What does this mean? Amongst other things it means that they are ruthless, greedy, have no remorse and they can lie shamelessly and then lie some more and all in the pursuit of power and greed. That's the difference between them and us normal folk who uphold some degree of morals. The bad apples in the eBay example are often people with the same afflictions as the aforementioned politicians and corp bigwigs but who are generally too stupid or lazy to reach such dizzy heights and instead prey on or leach off individuals in one way or another rather than entire populations.

Edited by shoogalumps, 07 May 2014 - 11:06 pm.

[Braeker]

this is off-topic, but a debit card or not, it has always been behind me in issues when a seller has not been honest, i don't see the seller as a trusted party, its not a cash auction (which would be different).

[Hessen]

There's a higher dispute percentage on ebay than you'd think. And there would be higher if it wasn't governed so much.

 

Gumtree is a better example as it doesn't have dispute handling. And the distrust on there is huge.

 

Most people are out for themselves.

[Darkademic]

Actually my ideal is anarchy devoid of the worst in our collective nature, but I cannot see that working as it would need passive and active respect of individual and community rights by everybody. Libertarianism is the next best thing with minimal facilitation and law enforcing government for the people and strictly subject to the people. It is kind of upside down just now and we seem to be edging closer and closer to a totalitarian global system and UKIP, specifically Farage seems to recognise and chime against.

 

Aha, so presumably anarcho-capitalist, as opposed to anarcho-collectivist? I consider myself to be a minarchist on the borderline where it meets anarcho-capitalism. Government's only legitimate function is the defence of individual rights (police, courts, military).

[Braeker]

I must admit Dark, the titles of different views are unknown to me, but the 3 functions you list are something i strongly put faith too. Humans have never settled an argument through words. There is always the threat of further action to  re-enforce them.

[Monkeypooh]

if we start from the point that all politician's are self serving cunts then the rest of this debate becomes clearer...atm if i asked yer what is ukip policy on the nhs i bet only 1 in 10 of yer could tell me ....

 

• EUROPE: Nigel Farage says he wants an "amicable divorce" from the European Union. Britain would retain trading links with its European neighbours but would withdraw from treaties and end subscription payments, adopting a similar relationship with the EU to Norway or Switzerland. 
• were see how well scotland does
•  
• IMMIGRATION: An end to the age of "mass uncontrolled immigration". It wants a five year freeze on immigration for permanent settlement - and any future migration must be strictly limited to those who can "clearly be shown to benefit the British people as a whole and our economy". Immigrants would not be able to apply for public housing or benefits until they had paid tax for five years. In order to achieve these goals Britain would have to leave the EU because there are no restrictions on other EU citizens moving to the UK while it remains a member.
• i cant wait to have my 7 or 8 houses in all the other eu counties that are empty as the whole of eu is now living in the uk...oh sorry if yer a ex pat living in eu now u will have to come back and enjoy the wonderful new world of ukip..
•  
• TAX: UKIP favours a flat tax - a single combined rate of income tax and national insurance paid by all workers. It claims this would end the complexity of the current system and allow people to keep more of the money they have earned. It would also lead to a major shrinking of the size of the state, which would revert to a "safety net" for the poorest. The party has yet to decide the rate at which the flat tax would be levied. Its policy at the 2010 election was 31% but a recent policy paper suggested 25%. It is having an internal debate about whether there should be two rates.
• sounds great can u hear them cheering in the shires ...well u bloody should be...Currently the top 10% of all income tax payers in the UK pay about 59% of all income tax. They also pay tax at higher rates than anyone else. That is why they pay so more, but that’s also because they earn more than most, of course. ....
•  
• EDUCATION: UKIP backs selection by ability and would encourage the creation of new grammar schools. It would give parents vouchers to spend in the state or private education sector. It also advocates the return of the student grant system to replace loans.
• see above tax policy and the massive slash in state revenue ....so were discount this one except for poor people to pay for rich people children to go to uni and drastically reduce the numbers of poor entering higher education ...( i look down on him )
•  
• HEALTH: UKIP says it has no plans to fundamentally change the NHS - it would, however, shrink the Department of Health and hand control to locally elected County Health Boards. It would also restore "traditional" non-university training for nurses.
• see above tax policy and the massive slash in state revenue...atm there is a floated ballon to see and we have had this before, if there should be a charge to visit your gp ....in ukip world there is no question u would have to find alternate funding for the nhs and charges would come in....( the nhs is where we as a nation show our compassion for our fellow citizen's brought in on a promise as a bribe for the poor to go fight in the second ww ..see poor and and aftermath of first ww)
•  
• DEFENCE: According to a recent policy paper, UKIP would increase defence spending back to 2010 levels. It would build more warships and carry out an urgent review of the case for replacing Trident, including the option of a new British-built nuclear missile system capable of launch from air, sea or sub-surface vessels.
• money money moneeeeeeeeeeeeey ...fuck the poor arm the world and take what yer want

• ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE: UKIP is sceptical about the existence of man-made climate change and would scrap all subsidies for renewable energy. It would also cancel all wind farm developments. Instead, it backs the expansion of shale gas extraction, or fracking, and a mass programme of nuclear power stations.
• head up yer arse its not happening ...its just normal seasonal change ...yer bet yer ...once in a 100 events are now happening every year ..draw yer own conclusion

• GAY MARRIAGE: UKIP supports the concept of civil partnerships, but opposes the move to legislate for same-sex marriage, which it says risks "the grave harm of undermining the rights of Churches and Faiths to decide for themselves whom they will and will not marry".
• most of the faiths are at this moment having a wonderful debate on how they handle gay members of their congregation any where from 5-10% of their members will be gay and much the same of the clergy ....you will have your own views on this but remember no faith is forced to marry any gay people, just  find a minister who is willing to marry them of their faith...../sigh back to the 50 and good old days of rape in marriage being legal or was it the 80s when that was outlawed..( see that i did some tabloid red top slurring and mixing of issues )
•  
• LAW AND ORDER: UKIP would double prison places and protect "frontline" policing to enforce "zero tolerance" of crime.
• u bet yer they would ...all the barstards who wont accept their place in society would need to go some where and its good for job creation with the expanison of the prison service and the army ...

• THE ECONOMY: UKIP is proposing "tens of billions" of tax cuts and had set out £77bn of cuts to public expenditure to deal with the deficit.
• see above where they are going to spend all that money to fulfill all them spending commitments
•  
• TRANSPORT: UKIP says it is the only political party to oppose the High Speed 2 (HS2) rail line arguing it will destroy countryside for little economic gain. It also opposes a third runway at Heathrow, arguing instead for an expansion of Manston airport, in Kent.
• i have a jag and i am having a fag ..

• SOCIAL ISSUES: UKIP has been vocal in its opposition to what it sees as "political correctness" in public life. It also argues that multiculturalism has "split" British society. It would legislate to allow smoking in pubs, in designated rooms, and hold local referendums on repealing the hunting ban.
• i love pc as it stop wankers bullying others with their loud shouting of their rights over others.....lets sing the national anthem and salute the flag before we start work ..this will restore civic pride in the right way to be british
• .
• DEMOCRACY: The party wants binding local and national referendums on major issues.
• oh joy so now we don't have a parliamentary democracy ,but one led by advertising for each issue

remember at the top where i said all politicians are self serving cunts ....the words to remember is All and Cunts

Edited by Monkeypooh, 08 May 2014 - 06:16 am.

[shoogalumps]

There's a higher dispute percentage on ebay than you'd think. And there would be higher if it wasn't governed so much.
 
Gumtree is a better example as it doesn't have dispute handling. And the distrust on there is huge.
 
Most people are out for themselves.

How high is it? I bet it is minuscule in comparison to the volume of transactions every day. One of the things which makes eBay successful is buyer/seller ratings, everyone is out for themselves and most make sure they act properly because not doing so will affect their reputation and other people's willingness to do business with them. You get abusers but they are quickly identified and avoided. It is the same in trade dealings where lines of credit are extended for an agreed period like 30 days if you're buy wears for your shop from a wholesaler.

In my personal experience I have never had a problem with eBay and I have been using it pretty much since it launched with hundreds of buys and sells from and to private individuals and companies. Gumtree is a bad example as it has a disproportionate number of scammers and repeat scammers from all over the world. I have only used that a handful of times and in one instance where I was flat hunting I was almost scammed by a Nigerian when they first embarked on their Western Union ploys, about two years before it appeared on Watch Dog.

People can be trusted generally speaking, social predators like politicians and big business can't be.

[shoogalumps]

Aha, so presumably anarcho-capitalist, as opposed to anarcho-collectivist? I consider myself to be a minarchist on the borderline where it meets anarcho-capitalism. Government's only legitimate function is the defence of individual rights (police, courts, military).

Anarcho capitalism is a bit of an oxymoron. Capitalism is about amassing wealth and power relative to your peers, anarchism is about equality where sources of production cannot and must not be owned for private profiteering, here I am talking about natural resources. Nothing wrong with having your own business and becoming rich because of your talents or business nous. Just don't exploit the vital needs of others. And I am talking about scum like the head of Nestle who said that water is not a human right and should not be free.

I realise that libertarianism has extremist elements but the very mechanics of a free market allow for forces like that to be neutralised.

Edited by shoogalumps, 08 May 2014 - 06:33 am.

[Rainu]

PayPal is like a debit card. In eBay a buyer puts total faith in the seller sending the item after he has paid. Sure there are bad apples but in the vast majority of cases people fulfil their end of the bargain.

Most politicians and corporate big wigs either have narcissistic personality disorder or are blatant sociopaths. What does this mean? Amongst other things it means that they are ruthless, greedy, have no remorse and they can lie shamelessly and then lie some more and all in the pursuit of power and greed. That's the difference between them and us normal folk who uphold some degree of morals. The bad apples in the eBay example are often people with the same afflictions as the aforementioned politicians and corp bigwigs but who are generally too stupid or lazy to reach such dizzy heights and instead prey on or leach off individuals in one way or another rather than entire populations.

 

 

People can be trusted generally speaking, social predators like politicians and big business can't be.

 

Sorry mate but this is just complete and utter bull, I can't tell if you're using exaggeration to try to further your rhetoric or if you're being naïve. From what you say, you would think that politicians and "corporate big wigs" are another species. If you can trust people then you can trust them as well since, surprise surprise, they are also people. I'm not saying there aren't greedy bastards among them, definitely not, but that is a human trait and can be found in any profession. If you can present some real proof of what you are saying, feel free to do so - in fact I insist, since you seem to be so sure of your point that you repeat it several times I can't believe that it's something you don't have some form of evidence to back up your claim with. As for eBay, the rating system and governing is what makes it somewhat reliable - if you think people are generally good then go ahead and read comments sections on the Internet; people, when given the freedom of anonymity, are often dicks.

[Danny]

Probably the best thing Farage has ever said. I'm not on board with a lot of his policies, but his views on the EU are spot on.

 

 

 

“The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time, to erode rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptible reductions. In this way, the people will not see those rights and freedoms being removed until past the point at which these changes cannot be reversed.”

Spoiler

― Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

[uTweaker]

I vote for UKIP, not because I like their policies but because I think it will be as funny as fuck if they got in and then realised they couldn't actually change anything.

 

All the political parties are as bad as each other.

[Poison]

I will definitely be voting for UKIP as I want out of Europe although in the general election I feel this is a wasted vote and could let Labour in through the back door if the right's vote is split.

 

When we have the last referendum it was based on a trading agreement with Europe and not on closer integration, it definitely was not about us wanting to be governed by Brussels. Did you know that 70% of our laws are made in Brussels by non-elected bureaucrats? 

 

A couple of my reasons for voting UKIP are :

 

I do not want to be told what to do by a foreign power. I am English and want my Government to make the rules

 

I do not want the Court of Human Rights telling our judges that they are wrong when they want to deport a foreign criminal

 

I do not want unskilled foreign workers coming to my country and taking the unskilled jobs which could be done by our current unemployed population.

 

The argument that we will lose thousands of jobs if we leave Europe is rubbish. Do you think the Germans will want to stop selling us VW's? I doubt it !!

[uTweaker]

Trade will still continue if we pull out of the EU we will either join the EFTA or just trade as a separate entity I do agree that the EU has too much control over everything and I believe that the a lot of the EU legislation that we follow isn't actually being followed by a lot of the member states.