9 replies to this topic

[Darkademic]

The justice / punishment system in the UK is pathetic. Serious criminals get let out early, it takes days/weeks/months/years for sentences to be given, ASBOs are given out like awards, a massive bureaucracy prevents the police from doing actual crime fighting, people get paid millions in compensation for being saved from a suicide attempt, prisons are filled with people who shouldn't even be there, and the prisons themselves are more like hotels which WE pay for through taxes. Huge numbers of young people are totally out of control, there is simply no discipline or fear of punishment anymore, partly due to the total ineffectiveness of the system in place.

If I were in charge I would firstly reinstate the death penalty for murderers (where the evidence is sufficient as to be certain of the facts). Then I would make sure criminals get what they deserve regardless of their circumstances. Punish the crime not the criminal, yes, but that means punishing people indiscriminately. If someone steals something, they are fined twice the value of whatever they stole, and if they cannot pay, they should be forced to work off their debt. The age where one is treated as an adult, in terms of criminal offences, should be lowered, or perhaps a new bracket that covers 13-18 year olds. They know full well what they are doing and should be treated accordingly.

Anyone else have any thoughts on any of this?

[Arbiter]

I agree that the UK justice system is quite laughable and is in dire need of reorganisation. You often see contradictary levels of leniency and severity so that "low-level" criminals are punished far too harshly, whereas murderers, rapists, paedophiles and other violent criminals have their sentences reduced at every turn.

I definitely do not support the death penalty however, as nobody has the right to take someone else's life, and also because of the flawed nature of the system which means innocent people may potentially be executed, which is a horrible thought really.

[Mastermind]

I definitely do not support the death penalty however, as nobody has the right to take someone else's life[.]

Except in retaliation. Objective rights are negative, so you can't have the right to an action (like taking someone's life) without contradicting some other right, in this case the right to life. If a person violates the right to life of another, they forefit their own right to life and should therefore be executed as this is the only just course of action.

[A]nd also because of the flawed nature of the system which means innocent people may potentially be executed, which is a horrible thought really.

Innocent people may also be imprisoned for their entire life, which in some ways is even worse than death, so do you think we should not imprison people either?

The practicality of the death penalty should be kept separate to the morality of it by the way. Capital punishment is entirely moral, however it must of course only be used when the evidence is absolutely overwhelming.

[iF0rmulae]

Anyone else have any thoughts on any of this?

Yeah, the UK is too nice to criminals.

I read something just last week about the facilities in which prisoners live. Turns out that the exercise facilities provided by many prisons are better than public facilities in local towns. It was also asserted that, in many cases, more money is spent on food for prisoners than on food for school children. Of course it would be fantastic to give all prisoners the chance to educate themselves, become free of any bad habits and get healthier, but there comes a point where the expense is not justified by the results. I don't know what the figures are, but the rate of reoffending is ridiculously high, despite current (expensive) rehabilitation methods. When more is being spent on prisoners than on school children there seems to be an imbalance.

[ReaverMage]

I know this is an oooooold thread but it's pretty interesting.

So the main arguments you raise, Darkademic, are the re-establishment of capital punishment and the lowering of criminal responsibility age.

So capital punishment. What are your arguments in favour of that? And to pre-empt the famous "It's only fair" argument, two wrongs don't make a right. The point of the criminal justice system is to protect society from the criminal, and if possible to rehabilitate the criminal and make them a normal member of society. Sure, capital punishment protects society from the criminal, but it doesn't exactly rehabilitate the criminal. I mean, does an 18 year old who kills someone have no chance of becoming a productive member of society in his/her entire life? And what if it is manslaughter? Or murder by negligence?

Also, Capital Punishment isn't effective as a deterrent- Criminals don't think they will be caught and most don't think about consequences anyway. And there will inevitably be at least one instance in which someone is wrongly executed.

As for lowering the age of criminal responsibility, I don't think even an 18 year old is fully aware of the implications of his/her actions, let alone a 13 year old. They are both full of raging hormones, and unless you were extraordinarily mature as a 13 year old, I think none of us were immune to teenage naivety.

[Darkademic]

I know this is an oooooold thread but it's pretty interesting.

So the main arguments you raise, Darkademic, are the re-establishment of capital punishment and the lowering of criminal responsibility age.

So capital punishment. What are your arguments in favour of that? And to pre-empt the famous "It's only fair" argument, two wrongs don't make a right. The point of the criminal justice system is to protect society from the criminal, and if possible to rehabilitate the criminal and make them a normal member of society. Sure, capital punishment protects society from the criminal, but it doesn't exactly rehabilitate the criminal. I mean, does an 18 year old who kills someone have no chance of becoming a productive member of society in his/her entire life? And what if it is manslaughter? Or murder by negligence?

Also, Capital Punishment isn't effective as a deterrent- Criminals don't think they will be caught and most don't think about consequences anyway. And there will inevitably be at least one instance in which someone is wrongly executed.

As for lowering the age of criminal responsibility, I don't think even an 18 year old is fully aware of the implications of his/her actions, let alone a 13 year old. They are both full of raging hormones, and unless you were extraordinarily mature as a 13 year old, I think none of us were immune to teenage naivety.

Yea I posted that a long time ago. I don't support capital punishment anymore. I mean, I do in principle, but in practice I think there's too great a risk of error. If it were possible to eliminate error, I would support it on the ground that it is just - if you take someone's life, you forefeit your own.

As for the age of responsibility, 16 doesn't seem unreasonable to me. It's a tough one though - and I haven't really thought about it probably since this I posted this thread.

[DeanAdamFry]

Yea I posted that a long time ago. I don't support capital punishment anymore. I mean, I do in principle, but in practice I think there's too great a risk of error. If it were possible to eliminate error, I would support it on the ground that it is just - if you take someone's life, you forefeit your own.

As for the age of responsibility, 16 doesn't seem unreasonable to me. It's a tough one though - and I haven't really thought about it probably since this I posted this thread.

Age of responsibility varies due to it depends on the person when they decide to mature but I would say the age of responsibility should be 21 years old which gives teenagers/young adults enough time to get their shit together and get a job.

[Wulfgar]

The system in this country is 100% pathetic indeed, we used to have Balls of Steel now were as soft as a big fat Sponge soaking up everything and anything that is going to eventually bring around Civil War ...armor up lads !

[Donkzy]

1 comment its Pathetic, Even if you are convicted of say stealing it takes like 10 times to be sent to prison for say 2 weeks, you do 1 week in cell with tv and as much 'help' in many different forms and classes as you want. Its a joke,hardly even a deterrent to the criminally minded as their all really friendly with each other inside anyway. If some nice person got put in for say driving offence he'd be eaten alive in there Utter bullshit

Edited by Donkz, 13 March 2012 - 07:00 pm.

[HellsingDS]

Yes, the justice system is incredibly flawed but prisons are not the problem. If you were to create a harsh prison environment then you only encourage violent behaviour, you need only look into the 'prison experiment' psychological study to understand that. Or, if you're not too much into reading then watch this movie based on it: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0997152/. I'm mixed on the death sentence though, although some people are far from help others feel a deep regret for what they did. I think the case needs to be studied on an individual basis, if we had an automatic death sentence we would of never of had people like johnny cash.

Like I say though, the problem is not prison. Prison is only a temporary way of dealing with problems like sweeping them under a rug. What we should be focusing on is the cause of criminal behaviour and trying to prevent it rather than 'fix' it. This is what is wrong with our government and society, we are far too short sighted so nothing truly gets fixed. Instead it only gets worse... there have been schemes that I believe takes some steps towards preventing them by creating positive environments for problem children in school (so they grow with more of a social attachment than they normally would). But the government don't see immediate effects from said projects and thus they have had their funding cut.

Intellectuals solve problems, geniuses prevent them.
Albert Einstein

(sorry, einstein has become somewhat of a recent fascination for me... been reading alot of his stuff lately)

Edited by HellsingDS, 28 March 2012 - 08:43 am.