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spooky wookys fact or fiction ?


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#17 Whakapapa

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 10:24 am

Not everything that exist can currently be explained, so feeling the way you do, do you then not believe in stuff we "know" exists but don't know how to explain (yet/ever)? Things like; placebo effect, or nocebo effect.


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#18 Aspeh

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 12:17 pm

Of course in these modern times the religion of Science is the daddy that most people follow without even realising it. And it's a religion I am very happy to question. I prefer to keep an open mind than to follow the gospel of some scientist who used maths, old books in uni and a 'best guess' to come up with a plausible explanation about something.

 

Look at oxygen. We're told it's there, invisible, in the invisible air, and that it's what our lungs use to keep us alive. We personally don't KNOW any of this, but we accept it because it is the most plausible explanation given that breathing in water/custard/jam doesn't work. We put our faith in science. Now science can't explain ghosts and mediums and that sort of thing. YET. Some day they will come up with a theory and all of a sudden it will be accepted that ghosts are there, just the same as invisible oxygen is, and no-one will even question it :)

 

Having an open mind is the *only* way to fly imo :P


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#19 Shifted

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 02:33 pm

Well, we might not know the specifics of how a placebo effect works, but I think it's safe to say it has to do with our brain and it's power to affect our body, so I'll roll with that.

 

As for ghosts and other things, if someone figures out the way how it can be logically explained, and it proves true, I'll believe, but until there's no real evidence, I consider it not real. Of course I don't disrespect anybody who believes in that stuff, everybody has a right to believe in whatever they want, especially if it helps them being a good person, and doesn't hurt other people. Of course some religions have a problem with the latter, but I think a discussion about that would be too long and too offtopic for this thread, so let's not go there.


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#20 Whakapapa

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 03:16 pm

Well, we might not know the specifics of how a placebo effect works, but I think it's safe to say it has to do with our brain and it's power to affect our body, so I'll roll with that.

 

But that is just a theory and not an explanation. Ghosts etc. are just theories as well, not explanations.


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#21 Shifted

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 04:21 pm

So what are the theories behind ghosts? I'm not really up-to-date with that stuff as it doesn't interest me much, you know.

I might be wrong but I'd doubt there is one that makes as much sense as the placebo one.


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#22 Khally

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:20 pm

But that is just a theory and not an explanation. Ghosts etc. are just theories as well, not explanations.

 

Explanations themselves are theories, regarding all sorts of subjects. Gravity itself is a theory.

And the placebo effect has been subject to extensive research and the results so far have been astonishing. I've been trying to keep up with some and if you're interested, I could point you to a few articles. But it's true, the full mechanism is far from being understood. But it -exists-, and that's a fact. And one can never say the same regarding the supernatural, as there is no proof of it nor a racional explanation, which is something that will be achieved for the placebo effect relatively soon.

 

On a more personal note, I stand in a similar position to Shifted. If I find a logical explanation, or some sort of proof, I will reconsider what I believe to be true or not. As I see it, and like I've mentioned before in this thread, cases of paranormal activity such as ghosts are results of either something similar to pareidolia, or plain liars. But since science doesn't work towards disproving something, as that would be working against the logic scientific methodologies, people will never see it written in school books, as they do regarding gravity, and silly beliefs will remain a constant throughout history ;)


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#23 Whakapapa

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 06:26 pm

Explanations themselves are theories, regarding all sorts of subjects. Gravity itself is a theory.

And the placebo effect has been subject to extensive research and the results so far have been astonishing. I've been trying to keep up with some and if you're interested, I could point you to a few articles. But it's true, the full mechanism is far from being understood. But it -exists-, and that's a fact. And one can never say the same regarding the supernatural, as there is no proof of it nor a racional explanation, which is something that will be achieved for the placebo effect relatively soon.

 

On a more personal note, I stand in a similar position to Shifted. If I find a logical explanation, or some sort of proof, I will reconsider what I believe to be true or not. As I see it, and like I've mentioned before in this thread, cases of paranormal activity such as ghosts are results of either something similar to pareidolia, or plain liars. But since science doesn't work towards disproving something, as that would be working against the logic scientific methodologies, people will never see it written in school books, as they do regarding gravity, and silly beliefs will remain a constant throughout history ;)

 

Well, I'd say there is a big difference between an explanation and a theory. An explanation, from how I understand it, is based on more than just a general idea. You have facts and such to back it up, whereas a theory is the general idea of something that you think might be true but you don't have facts to back it up.

 

One running theory of ghosts/paranormality is that you need to be in a specific mindset to experience it. That is why it is hard to prove and to get evidence.


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#24 Khally

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 11:46 pm

Well, I'd say there is a big difference between an explanation and a theory. An explanation, from how I understand it, is based on more than just a general idea. You have facts and such to back it up, whereas a theory is the general idea of something that you think might be true but you don't have facts to back it up.

 

One running theory of ghosts/paranormality is that you need to be in a specific mindset to experience it. That is why it is hard to prove and to get evidence.

 

Yes of course, there is a difference, but where is the line between what one considers theory and explanation? That will be relative to everyone. So when it comes down to it, everything is a theory, what differs is the amount of evidence backing it up and how much one needs to consider something as factual. But some people don't need any evidence or assume something is that evidence they are looking for, which goes as much for religion as for ghosts. A shady video may be enough for some. Strange noises for others. And the mindset you are referring to is accepting something as reality, dispite no logical explanation nor phisical proof, which makes me wonder if that's a "mindset" or just a design flaw humans have.


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#25 Whakapapa

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 08:12 am

Yes of course, there is a difference, but where is the line between what one considers theory and explanation? That will be relative to everyone. So when it comes down to it, everything is a theory, what differs is the amount of evidence backing it up and how much one needs to consider something as factual. But some people don't need any evidence or assume something is that evidence they are looking for, which goes as much for religion as for ghosts. A shady video may be enough for some. Strange noises for others. And the mindset you are referring to is accepting something as reality, dispite no logical explanation nor phisical proof, which makes me wonder if that's a "mindset" or just a design flaw humans have.

 

I'm well aware of that, my point is entirely that when a discussion of paranormal comes up, a lot of people readily dismiss it as nonsense because there is no concrete evidence/facts that they accept. But they are always accepting scientific theories even when those are (sometimes) unable to provide concrete evidence/facts justifying it. All I'm saying is you should always keep an open mind even if something sounds like completely nonsense, because you don't know if there is a shred of truth there just hiding behind some poorly descriped phenomenon, and you just might have to look in a different way to see it.

 

Imagine if noone examines things that seems absurd, we, as humans, would never have achieved such technological advances as we have. Just think of how absurd it must've sounded to people when Tesla talked about his visions, but he kept on and now we have radioes and shit, imagine if they were more openminded about it and supported him in his earlier years, how much further we could've been technologically. Take a look at early science fiction movies, they couldn't imagine cellphones (or the internet). But that didn't stop humanity from inventing it.

 

Maybe the surreal/paranormal, is just a few inventions away. Maybe our brain needs to be rewired/enhanced/trained to experience it or make use of it (empathy is very advanced in some people). But if everyone is just dismissing it outright then it might be centuries instead of decades - if it is at all possible of course ;)


Edited by Whakapapa, 22 January 2013 - 08:13 am.

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#26 mixe

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 11:32 am

big bang theory has been discussed on another topic however i would say by the post on that thread  60/70% ppl here regard it as fact tbh that's just as bad as religion  


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#27 Darkademic

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:47 pm

Ghosts are not theoretical, they are hypothetical. They are also unscientific because the hypothesis cannot be tested.

 

The big bang and gravity are both theories, and the evidence overwhelmingly supports them as being correct.

 

You can dismiss the claim that ghosts (or any supernatural entities, including God(s)) exist because it is arbitrary - it is not based on evidence (it actually goes against the evidence).


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#28 Khally

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:56 pm

Ghosts are not theoretical, they are hypothetical. They are also unscientific because the hypothesis cannot be tested.

 

The big bang and gravity are both theories, and the evidence overwhelmingly supports them as being correct.

 

You can dismiss the claim that ghosts (or any supernatural entities, including God(s)) exist because it is arbitrary - it is not based on evidence (it actually goes against the evidence).

 

^ Very well put, simple and straight to the point.


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#29 Aspeh

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 03:08 pm

...if you are under the assumption that humans/scientists collectively know everything there is to know and have made every discovery/invented every tool they can and will ever make. Which they don't and haven't.

 

You can equally confirm the existence of 'ghosts' if you have seen them with your own eyes, or spoken to them with your own mouth, which some people have.

 

Who is right and who is wrong? Neither. Ultimately, if we all blindly followed other peoples beliefs, be it science, religion, whatever, we'd never have discovered anything.


Edited by Aspeh, 23 January 2013 - 03:10 pm.

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#30 Darkademic

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 03:52 pm

You can equally confirm the existence of 'ghosts' if you have seen them with your own eyes, or spoken to them with your own mouth, which some people have.

 

Not true, for the same reason that we don't treat dreams as memories of actual events.

 

Science is the method behind all technological advances, whereas mysticism is responsible for nothing other than hindering (or attacking) those advances.

 

I don't know how you can "blindly" follow science, given that science requires the active use of evidence and reason to discover the nature of reality.


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#31 Devlin1991

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 04:48 pm

If you watch any of Derren Browns shows or videos regarding what science knows about human behaviour, in groups, alone, when making decisions, how memories are accessed etc. It can really open your eyes on just how much of our day to day lives are almost exclusively dictated by our subconscious even though we like to believe we consciously make the choices. I believe that a large portion of people who wholehearted believe they have seen and/or communicated with a ghost are simply at the mercy of their own subconscious, we know a decent amount about "Deja Vu" and "Jamais Vu" due to various trials that have been done and I think that these along with placebo and hallucinations can explain almost all of the symptoms/effects that are reported in ghost sightings. I have a very strong memory from when I was a child were I "seen" a fairy in my grans house multiple times in different rooms across the same day, it was no doubt based off Tinkerbell from Peter Pan. Do I believe it was a real mythical creature?, Of course not. But due to that experience I can relate to how some people who experience similar hallucinations at a young(naive) or old(losing marbles) age would believe what they are seeing is real and not just a manifestation from their mind.


Edited by Devlin1991, 23 January 2013 - 04:50 pm.

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#32 Aspeh

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 05:37 pm

No you can't, for the same reason that we don't treat dreams as memories of actual events.

 

Science is the method behind all technological advances, whereas mysticism is responsible for nothing other than hindering (or attacking) those advances.

 

I don't know how you can "blindly" follow science, given that science requires the active use of evidence and reason to discover the nature of reality.

 

.. using the tools currently available to them, with the current level of understanding.

 

We will have to agree to disagree methinks.

 

People should keep an open mind, not be so ready to just dismiss ideas or gang up on those who think outside the box, as is VERY often the case on the interwebs, (most of the big scientific discoveries more than likely came from people who thought outside the box) and use their own brains to decide for themselves what is fact and what is fiction. Question things which have been given to them as fact, rather than just accepting them. Thinking is a good thing. It develops understanding. A bit like the difference between copying a GW2 build off some forum, or actually working it out yourself! :D


Edited by Aspeh, 23 January 2013 - 05:40 pm.

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