32 replies to this topic

[mixe]

well there's lots of talk of it and  the general feeling i get is the Scots are happy with uk but not with London  so it will be like cutting off a hand because of gangrene in a finger 

 

i am not massively clued up with politics but will the Scots actually have more independence going independent ?

 

from what i have been told the Tories have never won a seat in Scotland  so if they vote for independence would that give the Tories a majority to win the next 2/3 elections to come while sticking the middle finger up at labour ?

 

1 thing i do know about politics is these things are usually done for political interests  and not having a hung parliament again would be a pretty big interest 

 

would this mean the Scots would have to go begging to the Tories every time they want a loan rather than labour just giving it them to keep the north vote sweet 

 

would Scotland have its own stock exchange for financing business back stopped by a London bank who would be under the authority of the Tories ? 

 

don't you Scots think its to good to be true that the Tories have given you the chance to vote for this ?

 

this maybe cynicism on my behalf but why else would the Tories do it  ?

[shoogalumps]

Scotland was largely Tory up until the 70s/80s, until the Tories were hijacked by treasonous neoliberal corporate stooge national asset rapists.

Scotland is self sufficient and always has been, in fact today it contributes 10% more in revenue to the UK than it gets back in turn. You've just been brainwashed by decades of scaremongering fear propaganda to think that Scotland would ever come begging for loans from the Tories or anyone else.

Scotland will have what every other like sized county has.

Neither the Tories nor anyone else can get in the way of democratic process in this country, no matter how much they'd like to try. It's like asking is it too good to be true that labour allowed us a chance to vote them out in 2010 - a completely vacuous question.

Losing Scotland will diminish the UK in many respects ranging from economic and cultural to political, military and science.

[Darkademic]

Scotland is self sufficient and always has been, in fact today it contributes 10% more in revenue to the UK than it gets back in turn. You've just been brainwashed by decades of scaremongering fear propaganda to think that Scotland would ever come begging for loans from the Tories or anyone else.

 

Do you have a source for that? Considering that the majority of countries in the world have a budget deficit, and those that have a surplus mostly have one of less than 1% (the exceptions are all developing nations, or have very small populations). A 10% surplus would suggest Scotland has one of the most powerful and productive economies in the world.

[Hessen]

My only issue with the vote is the same with any public vote, and that's how many people will be uninformed voters and are voting off emotion rather than seriously weighing up pros and cons. (Not everyone of course)

 

But that's a general issue I have with democracy, the chavvy family round the corner from me voted labour because they don't like David Cameron's face. I don't trust the people in the UK to make the right decision for the right reasons.

[shoogalumps]

Do you have a source for that? Considering that the majority of countries in the world have a budget deficit, and those that have a surplus mostly have one of less than 1% (the exceptions are all developing nations, or have very small populations). A 10% surplus would suggest Scotland has one of the most powerful and productive economies in the world.

 

 

There is no single source, you have to look at public spending, vs tax revenues vs budget received from Westminster.

 

I made a mistake in that initial statement,  what i meant to say is that Scotland contributes 10% more per capita than the rest of the UK average in tax revenue when oil is taken into account - That's not to say that a future government wouldn't operate under a deficit as it seems to be the way Western economies like to operate.

 

http://www.scotland....2013/11/9348/18 (talks about budget etc)  Scotland's public spending is about 65bn - 30% of which is raised domestically through local taxes and it receives the rest from Westminster - so the tax contribution to the UK and what it receives from Westminster is about £3bn in surplus going to London.

 

Tax revenues paid to HMRC from Scotland's North Sea oil operations in 2012-2013 were £6.5bn.  Whilst this source of revenue will diminish over time, before it does it will provide Scotland with substantial wealth to further diversify its economy and set up a sovereign wealth fund such as other small countries in similar natural resource situations like Norway.

 

More food for thought: http://www.businessf...g-for-scotland/

 

You also have to consider the economic stimulous created by a shift of ALL public/government operations including vastly increased foreign diplomatic presence in Scotland and new ministries will create.

 

 

My only issue with the vote is the same with any public vote, and that's how many people will be uninformed voters and are voting off emotion rather than seriously weighing up pros and cons. (Not everyone of course)

 

But that's a general issue I have with democracy, the chavvy family round the corner from me voted labour because they don't like David Cameron's face. I don't trust the people in the UK to make the right decision for the right reasons.

 

 

I think the crux of the yes campaign's vote rather than coming from nationalism (which is considerable) comes from the kind of country in which people up North want to live in.   It does not match up very well with what's in store here.  I think the majority of the No campaign's vote comes from fear of the unknown and emotion (unionism) rather than economic fears per se.

 

I personally don't care either way which way the vote goes but am pretty keen to see what does happen if Scotland votes yes.

[Hessen]

First shop I found went visiting Edinburgh:

 

[shoogalumps]

Lol, you must have had blinkers for everything else on.  I grew up in Edinburgh and lived there for 23 years.

[mixe]

tbh 1st shop you see in uk city's these days is charity shops would rather have whisky and wine tbh although the irony is that scotch whisky has found a top class Asian market who are willing to pay good loola 

 

silly question but where you going to get all the engineers from to fill the shortage of skilled labour when you go all out oil ? 

Edited by mixe, 26 April 2014 - 07:16 pm.

[Devlin1991]

Depends on the area Mixe, large shopping centers dominate on pricing so a lot of the smaller speciality shops (barring some that survive in more affluent areas) are shutting down. Take Paisley for example where I go to uni, it used to be a busy shopping hub but due to the rise of Braehead Shopping Center and the quick travel time into Glasgow city center I'd say around 1/3 of the shops are closed with "Imagine a Bakery / Imagine a clothes shop" decals on the windows. The rest are bookmakers, pawn shops, off licences, currency exchanges, travel agents, pound stores and estate agents. People want to leave because the "community" is deteriorating and the remaining shops exist to either parasite the income away from those that stay or to make some commission from those that want to leave. It's pretty bleak. There are far worse areas just that Paisley sticks in my mind because my Uni campus is there and I walk along that depressing main street a few times a week.

 

Edited by Devlin1991, 26 April 2014 - 11:42 pm.

[shoogalumps]

 Isn't it betting shops?  They blight what seems like every street in most places.

 

tbh 1st shop you see in uk city's these days is charity shops would rather have whisky and wine tbh although the irony is that scotch whisky has found a top class Asian market who are willing to pay good loola 

 

silly question but where you going to get all the engineers from to fill the shortage of skilled labour when you go all out oil ? 

 

It is all out oil already - skills have been there since the 70s.  Loads of people from NE England and the Highlands work out there.  I have 3 or 4 mates from those parts who do shifts in the North Sea.

[mixe]

yes you have just enough skills to maintain currant production but as you try going for the harder to get oil which require insane engineering ideas along with the pretence that you will up overall  production will result in Scotland needing more skilled ppl 

 

now combine that with the same serge globally and at that point you have a problem can Scotland compete with wages being paid in Dubai Australia for example ? 

[shoogalumps]

My point was plenty of foreign workers are there already, not like they're going to leave and where there's demand and jobs people will come from the places they currently come from, what's stopping them?

 

There's demand for my skills in London working for international companies and paying taxes here, and hey presto here I am adding value and wealth to the economy.

 

These things sort themselves out and it is not a bad economic problem to have by any means, if it ever comes to pass. 

Edited by shoogalumps, 27 April 2014 - 10:48 am.

[mixe]

there's a current shortage of 125000 engineers for the oil and gas extraction industry globally and as the pace is complexity of the projects pick up so will additional demand for skills 

 

what I'm basically saying is you cant just simply open up the oil tap a bit more here and there as a form of physical stimulus.

 

So what would you do if you wanted to go on a new social expansion program i.e. new schools, universities, housing, hospitals etc.  Would you ask the Bank of England for a loan? 

[shoogalumps]

So currently, with the status quo rule you're saying that there is a shortage of 125,000 engineers?  That's a heck of a lot and it's down to the fact that the government has been, well, incompetent and negligent of the real needs of this country.   It's no wonder so many Scots, who already see themselves as distinct might wish for independence.

 

Why would Scotland borrow from the Bank of England anyway?  Where do they get money from?  Of course, I forgot, they just print it - or add some more digits in the computer as it is today. 

 

It's not my decision to decide how social expansion would be funded in Scotland to the extent it is required.  My common sense tells me that there is no quick fix solution to something like that and it is something that will take a generation to resolve.  It's about prioritisation.  The free market is quite good at that if Adam Smith is to be believed, but it's rarely given a chance without constant government meddling in this increasingly command economy we live in run for the benefit of elite corporates. 

 

But I digress, I don't know and it's not for me to decide.  In any case, I am not a nationalist - you are talking to me as if I am - I find the notion quite pitiful in any form and for any nationality. My only point was, I wouldn't believe the negative hype and fear mongering around Scotland's future because the numbers don't agree.

[Devlin1991]

http://wingsoverscot...e-mystery-tour/

Pretty relevant to this discussion. The sheer control the media has over this debate is scary, Australia felt the power of the Murdoch group in their recent elections.

[mixe]

agree dev  you want to see the smear campaign going on down here with ukip