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EU Referendum


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#289 Darkademic

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 03:32 pm

If we go the route Boris Johnson talked about in his statement that'd be great - we'd keep the things that make the EU good (free trade, free movement) whilst discarding the things that make it bad (suffocating regulations, trade barriers with everyone outside of the EU, increasingly centralised and detached legislature, being anchored to much weaker economies). Don't care what people voted for, most people voted for bullshit, I care what makes the country prosperous and free.


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#290 Diacarb

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 04:05 pm

Eridan your use of statistics weakens the remain more than the leave poor choice and shows just how blind both sides are


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#291 Acesorb

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 04:09 pm

Also its about 26% of the population and 38% of the electorate voted for this. Try and keep the 52% in its correct context.

 

That's irrelevant. If people didn't vote that isn't my fault. I was speaking regarding the 48/52 vote result on Thursday.. I don't know how many people regret on either side and I don't believe polls can reflect accurately since the last two whoppers.

 

I'd prefer to pull out of the single market but of course this raises valid concerns for the good of our country. We would weather the storm though in the long run.

 

I personally would also be happy with the single market and free travel of worthwhile labor in and out. :)

 

One thing to say though, if the vote went the other way, I'm pretty sure people wouldn't be able to select parts of the EU to reject. We'd have to accept it all. Whereas now we have an OUT vote, it is expected we can hang on to parts of it. I think a lot of the OUT voters will feel cheated by this.

 

The question was Remain or Leave, not Leave but keep this and that and this and that.. unless I missed the small print on the piece of paper I put my cross in lol :)

 

/ace


Edited by Acesorb, 28 June 2016 - 04:15 pm.

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#292 Salamol

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 04:33 pm

One thing to say though, if the vote went the other way, I'm pretty sure people wouldn't be able to select parts of the EU to reject. We'd have to accept it all. Whereas now we have an OUT vote, it is expected we can hang on to parts of it. I think a lot of the OUT voters will feel cheated by this.


If the vote went the other way, we would absolutely be talking about what to reject. That's called democracy. That's exactly what the EU is. It's why we have elected MEPs to represent us, it's why every country has a say. It's why, during negotiations, there are concessions and vetos so that a deal can be reached. It's why we get our rebate and why we get farming subsidies.

If the vote went the other way, we'd be talking about how we can make the EU better, how we can address the concerns raised by those that wanted out. There are real concerns, but the EU is not an insurmountable wall. As I've said previously and as you have recently mentioned. Yes, Farage is happy, he's been pushing for this for a very long time. Consider, if in place of Farage we had had someone that actually wanted to co-operate with the EU and make GOOD changes for the UK, would we not have been in a much better European Union?
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#293 Darkademic

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 04:50 pm

If the vote went the other way, we would absolutely be talking about what to reject. That's called democracy. That's exactly what the EU is. It's why we have elected MEPs to represent us, it's why every country has a say. It's why, during negotiations, there are concessions and vetos so that a deal can be reached. It's why we get our rebate and why we get farming subsidies.

If the vote went the other way, we'd be talking about how we can make the EU better, how we can address the concerns raised by those that wanted out. There are real concerns, but the EU is not an insurmountable wall. As I've said previously and as you have recently mentioned. Yes, Farage is happy, he's been pushing for this for a very long time. Consider, if in place of Farage we had had someone that actually wanted to co-operate with the EU and make GOOD changes for the UK, would we not have been in a much better European Union?

 

The EU has been an insurmountable wall though. We have 72 other MEP's in Europe, with a failure rate of 84% in terms of voting for something which ends up going the opposite way. A quarter of those have occurred in the last two years, meaning it's getting worse not better. The UK has the lowest success rate of all countries in the EU.


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#294 Eridan

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 05:50 pm

The EU has been an insurmountable wall though. We have 72 other MEP's in Europe, with a failure rate of 84% in terms of voting for something which ends up going the opposite way. A quarter of those have occurred in the last two years, meaning it's getting worse not better. The UK has the lowest success rate of all countries in the EU.

Can we have some sources for that? While the uk votes no the most of any country but it still votes yes over 90% of the time in the 2009-2012 period at least. This is council of ministers stuff cos it was the best I could get at short notice considering how clogged with EU crap google is atm.

http://www.votewatch...eport-final.pdf

Edit:

In other words, UK ministers were on the “winning side” 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%.

https://fullfact.org...s-uk-influence/


Edited by Eridan, 28 June 2016 - 05:53 pm.

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#295 Darkademic

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 06:12 pm

Can we have some sources for that? While the uk votes no the most of any country but it still votes yes over 90% of the time in the 2009-2012 period at least. This is council of ministers stuff cos it was the best I could get at short notice considering how clogged with EU crap google is atm.

http://www.votewatch...eport-final.pdf

Edit:

In other words, UK ministers were on the “winning side” 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%.

https://fullfact.org...s-uk-influence/

 

Most of the stuff that gets voted on does go through with an overwhelming majority (suggesting a lack of plurality of opinion), so the 84% figure pertains to things the UK (as a majority) opposes, but which gets passed anyway. So it's true that the UK is on the "winning side" most of the time, but the problem is in those cases there aren't really any sides at all.

 

It's pretty bizarre actually just how much consensus there is. Consider how much disagreement there is in Westminster, or even on these forums..! It's essentialy just, yes, yes, yes on everything, only 7% are rejected.. I hadn't actually known that until now, it's absurd. No wonder the laws and regulations just keep on piling up.

 

"A majority of British MEPs (across UK party lines) opposed 576 motions out of a total 1,936 that were put before the Parliament. Of those 576 motions, 485 were nonetheless approved by the rest of the Parliament despite the opposition of a majority of British MEPs."

 

http://www.telegraph...n-Brussels.html

 

http://forbritain.org/MEPs%20votes.pdf

 

http://www.theguardi...s-get-their-way

 

https://fullfact.org...ms-uk-influence

 

"That made [the UK] the country most likely to be on the losing side during the later period—the closest competitors were Germany and Austria."

 

More important than the numbers though is what specific things are being voted on and how much of an impact they have.


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#296 Eridan

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 06:17 pm

In terms of the recent trend don't you think that might have more to do with who has been in power since then the euroskeptic crowd they have been trying to please since then than a diffinitive change in the whole of the EU?


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#297 Darkademic

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 06:26 pm

In terms of the recent trend don't you think that might have more to do with who has been in power since then the euroskeptic crowd they have been trying to please since then than a diffinitive change in the whole of the EU?

 

The UK has the highest percentage of euroskeptic MP's, so likely. Does it sound like much of a democracy though? With levels of consensus that high, and euroskeptic/reformist voices essentially having no effect (which is what I was responding to Sal about, as he thinks we'd have a good change to change the EU from the inside).


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#298 Salamol

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 06:49 pm

It's pretty bizarre actually just how much consensus there is. Consider how much disagreement there is in Westminster, or even on these forums..! It's essentialy just, yes, yes, yes on everything, only 7% are rejected.. I hadn't actually known that until now, it's absurd. No wonder the laws and regulations just keep on piling up.


I don't find it bizarre at all. Legislation is drafted by the Commission which is made up of all the member states, by the time it reaches European Parliament for a vote, it's already been polished much more than in the Commons, and each country's representative has added to it, to best suit their country's interest.

Is that a bad thing?

As to your earlier point, about Farage being just one of 73 MEPs and the higher failure rate in the last 2 years - The European Elections held 2 years ago elected 24 UKIP MEPs, so it's no mystery as to why there's suddenly been a shift in us not getting our way. Our "way" for the past 2 years has been to ensure the EU unravels and looks as bad as it possibly can to the British public, by a third of our elected representatives. It's a good job democracy actually works in the EU.
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#299 Darkademic

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 07:04 pm

I don't find it bizarre at all. Legislation is drafted by the Commission which is made up of all the member states, by the time it reaches European Parliament for a vote, it's already been polished much more than in the Commons, and each country's representative has added to it, to best suit their country's interest.

Is that a bad thing?

As to your earlier point, about Farage being just one of 73 MEPs and the higher failure rate in the last 2 years - The European Elections held 2 years ago elected 24 UKIP MEPs, so it's no mystery as to why there's suddenly been a shift in us not getting our way. Our "way" for the past 2 years has been to ensure the EU unravels and looks as bad as it possibly can to the British public, by a third of our elected representatives. It's a good job democracy actually works in the EU.

 

I'm going to read more into it because it's not something I've thought about much. Sounds bizarre to me. I don't know what "polished" policies are; it sound more like all the policies must be sanded down and compromised upon until everyone agrees (just agrees, with no real enthusiasm), so you end up with a kind of beige inoffensive blend of not-really-representing-anyone-to-a-significant-degree. It means the status quo will dominate in perpetuity. Far from suiting each country's "best interest", it would just ensure no country's interests are particularly harmed (in the estimation of these politicians at least).

 

People complain that the two main parties in this country are essentially indistinguishable. The EU appears to be a further evolution of that.

 

Just my gut reaction, lol.


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#300 Salamol

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 07:19 pm

I'm going to read more into it because it's not something I've thought about much. Sounds bizarre to me. I don't know what "polished" policies are; it sound more like all the policies must be sanded down and compromised upon until everyone agrees (just agrees, with no real enthusiasm), so you end up with a kind of beige inoffensive blend of not-really-representing-anyone-to-a-significant-degree. It means the status quo will dominate in perpetuity. Far from suiting each country's "best interest", it would just ensure no country's interests are particularly harmed (in the estimation of these politicians at least).
 
People complain that the two main parties in this country are essentially indistinguishable. The EU appears to be a further evolution of that.
 
Just my gut reaction, lol.


I think you're probably right. And I think perhaps this IS what the EU is. It's setting minimum standards so that everyone in the EU has a life that is a degree above that which is experienced in other parts of the world, while not pushing too far as to encroach on freedoms. It's underpinning certain rights but still allowing countries to have control over the kind of decisions that would "rock the boat."
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#301 Terdle

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 11:05 am

Not happy with the leave result, it was a good thing to show juncker he's not as powerful as he thinks he is, but at the cost of what. The ideas behind the EU are great, it just makes no sense for it to be led by a non-democratic chosen person.  :(

Meanwhile Merkel and France have plans to create a superstate.

And our MP has decided to ignore the outcome of the dutch referendum, which was a negative towards the oekraine treaty, completely and sign it anyway.

Everything is going to shits.


Edited by Terdle, 29 June 2016 - 11:42 am.

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#302 mixe

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 04:35 pm

thing is its a superstate that has lots of free trade regulations

 

non speak the same language

 

a shrinking single market in a sea of expanding global markets

 

a central bank that uses financial terrorism to get member states back into line

 

an expansion plan that's gonna at some point cause a war with the Russians

 

oh  and they don't like referendums / democracy

 

the single currency also made more ppl poor as the cost of living went through the roof


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#303 Darkademic

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 07:13 pm

I think this thread can be wrapped up now. Happy to re-open it if anyone was planning to say something, but it seems to have run its course. Feel free to make new threads for more specific or tangential related issues.


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