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EU Referendum


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#17 Salamol

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Posted 11 June 2016 - 10:17 am

Couple more weeks to go. Has anyone switched sides, strengthened their choice or found themselves still on the fence? I said this 4 months ago:

Where this referendum is concerned, I haven't looked into it properly because there's so much misinformation. Or rather, what we get by staying IN isn't even certain (the recent document is just a draft and is missing some key figures), and by pulling OUT we enter unknown territory where nobody is sure what will actually happen.


It's a little disappointing, but not surprising, that we're still getting lied to by both sides with so little time to go. Or rather, both sides have predicted different outcomes and have pulled different conclusions from the same pool of murky information.

I'm still firmly on the fence. If I don't come to a decision I'll spoil my ballot.
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#18 nidriks

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Posted 11 June 2016 - 01:35 pm

Well I've noticed that the Stay campaign is almost entirely focused on what could (i.e. food prices will go up, we'll lose out on trade etc etc) happen if we leave, whilst the Leave campaign is putting out the facts of what the situation currently is (i.e. the amount we spend on the EU every week, we can still trade with the EU etc etc).

 

Norway and Switzerland are two of the strongest economies in Europe and neither belong in the EU.

 

I know which way I'm voting. We need to make our own laws and not support failing economies of Eastern Europe. David Cameron's recent failure to secure anything like what he wanted to negotiate with the EU clearly shows we're firmly ruled by their laws.

 


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#19 Chuey

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Posted 11 June 2016 - 02:17 pm

Personally still on fence, often find myself arguing against both sides, but not yet convinced myself.

 

The biggest issue that drives the Leave campaign is immigration. Thing is though, the reason there is so much immigration is because people can find work (jobs are obviously available) or the benefit system. Leaving Europe isn't going to fix our broken benefit system or improve the work ethic of those who'd rather live off that system, and there are plenty around. We may find after leaving all we're left with is Broken Britain.

 

The other issue is this £350m they bang on about every week which is just nonsense but people will believe what they read in papers or what politicians with their own agendas spin. I mean we're not just gunna leave Europe and suddenly find the NHS has an extra £350m in their budget, Cameron is still the man in charge and he's not looking to build on public sector services.

 

Saying all that, EU is good idea if we're all on a level playing field, but we're clearly not.


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#20 Darkademic

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Posted 11 June 2016 - 02:22 pm

The only thing that tilts me slightly towards leaving is that decentralisation/localisation of political power is generally a good thing. Smaller governments and political bodies are less able to accumulate vast amounts of debt and are more easily held accountable for their mistakes.

Outside of that, the economic and political arguments for and against are largely meaningless. Nobody knows what the economic impact will be, particularly (and most importantly) over the long term. Nobody knows what kind of politicians will be voted into power in Europe or in the UK, or what decisions they'll make. Maybe the far right will become more and more popular in Europe, maybe they won't. Maybe we'll have a Corbynist socialist disaster in the UK, maybe we won't.

 

Ultimately the referendum exemplifies the whole problem with democracy. It's a load of people voting on things that'll affect everyone, without any real knowledge or understanding of what the consequences will be.

 

http://www.independe...n-a7059201.html


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#21 Aumento

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Posted 11 June 2016 - 02:52 pm

The fence is creaking under the weight.
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#22 Demondim

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Posted 11 June 2016 - 04:22 pm

I agree we don't really know how things will change if we leave, and that's partly to do with all the misinformation and scaremongering and wild assumptions based on guesswork; and partly because, hell, nobody can know the future.

 

What we DO know is how things will change if we stay.

We will loose more of our soverignty.

We will hand over more power for people who we didn't elect and don't represent US, the UK People; for them to decide how we should live and what it will cost us.

We will continue to throw 100's of millions of pounds at the EU every single month for these 'priviledges'.

I could go on with literally dozens and dozens of other FACTS about how bad it will continue to be if we stay in the EU, but I won't.

Do your own research and reach your own conclusions as best you can from ALL the information available, not just some politicians who are following their own agenda.

 

It's my firm belief that not knowing what will happen if we leave is a million times better for us as a nation, than staying and continuing to be invaded by the corruption and greed that is the EU.


Edited by Demondim, 11 June 2016 - 04:22 pm.

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#23 Obsequey

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Posted 11 June 2016 - 05:34 pm

What concerns me is how many people will form their decision based on memes they see posted on facebook that are complete bullshit.


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#24 nidriks

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Posted 11 June 2016 - 06:39 pm

What concerns me is how many people will form their decision based on memes they see posted on facebook that are complete bullshit.

 

There's a lot of bad information out there, and most of it from the politicians. People will get their information from sources they use (and trust, because most don't really trust politicians anyway), and even Facebook, sadly.

 

I don't use Facebook, and haven't seen any of the memes, but I can only imagine what appears on social media. It's not a nice thought.


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#25 Darkademic

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 07:11 pm

From what I know of the EU it's extremely undemocratic, and that for me is the important point. I would rather live in a poorer democracy than a richer oligarchy or tyranny. [...] The fearmongering and the outright nonsense that we can see coming from the establishment is just making me think that *they* stand to lose something, it's not making me think that *I* stand to lose something.

 


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#26 Salamol

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Posted 13 June 2016 - 12:04 am

I usually vote for the nation, humanity, the world... So healthcare is important to me, as is care for the elderly and the disabled. The environment, science and education are all big ones too. I have an affinity with the poor because that's where I came from and where I grew up... and to be fair, where I think I'll always be. That said, I could easily argue myself into middle class on a number of factors. But that's beside the point :D

I can see why the upper class votes for Conservative values. Lower taxes mean more money and less services, but these are services they don't use. I think the UK is strong enough to prosper outside of the EU, and I think we'll keep most of the important laws and regulations (workers rights for example). One thing both sides of the debate agree on is that the EU is stronger with the UK. But what happens to the EU if we leave? Are we going to see the troubles Greece has, spread across the continent? I believe someone in chat today said the EU was a sinking ship... but if the ship is sinking, should we not be "bailing out" the water rather than abandoning it? We helped build this ship and our banking elite helped fill it with holes where the economy is concerned. We're on an island, separated from the continent but I would hate to see our exit spark a societal collapse across the continent.

I'm all for helping others and I hope we can still provide stability for the EU whatever we do as a country. If we do prosper outside, I hope we can do more for the rest of the world, too. Independence from the EU might help a lot... There are those on the Leave side that think we'll become magnitudes richer. But whose pockets will be filled with coin? Are we, the people, going to feel the difference? Or will we (hyperbole alert) watch Europe burn, sink, explode whilst the City of London Fat-Cats add more zeros to their net worth?

And the real kicker is nobody knows. We have manipulated statistics based on manipulated statistics. There's no manifesto, there's no plan where we pick the best points, tally them up, then vote against the party that least aligns with our world view. We either Leave or Remain... and I think I'm still on the fence.
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#27 Ryaaf

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Posted 17 June 2016 - 07:50 am

I am way too disconnected from TV debates to even weigh in on this, plus i am not a British citizen.
 
However, i can share some experiences from my country when it comes to the EU or politics in general.
 
I do not watch TV stations in my country because they are owned by oligarchs/mobsters/shady politicians and they insult the opposing parties or the public whenever they feel like.
You see, i was member for a few months in the largest left-wing party in Romania, which i gracefully exited when i convinced myself the dirt was too deep on local and national level and that they had no interest in helping the poor working class - WHICH sustains the habits and spending of the upper middle class and higher more affluent classes.
I could not care less about politics, i cared for honesty and fairness - the poor were working harder only to get poorer and the rich were lazying around and robbing the poor or the middle class in order to grow even richer - that was my motivation to join the socialists, i could of joined any party as i went in there without family or friends, just as a citizen, a FREE citizen.
 
Some of you know my opinions on royal houses, well opinion is a far fetched term, rather stated truths; 1) they don't have a job and they don't work, they just go to parties and events 2) they did nothing during their lifetime to deserve point 1) ; and 3) all their wealth and social status is a consequence of exploiting the poor up until not very long ago.
 
Many laugh at Greece and all, but the crysis in Greece was triggered not by the people, but by a lot of corruption on top end, where people had little to say, until their rights were crossed, and Greece, like it or not is the birthplace of civilization in Europe, the geographical center of it and, more importantly the place where DEMOCRACY first appeared.
 
Situation in Romania is far far worse than in Greece, wages/income here are disastrous and have been ever since the robbing of the resources built by the communist regime started; just the problem is people either put up with it or leave the country, while Greeks - perhaps because of their fighting spirit or the lack of 45 years of scarring communism - decided to fight for their rights.
If you get sick, you DO NOT want to go to a hospital in here, chances are slim you will survive if severely ill, the doctor will blackmail you to bribe him/her (although they are paid by the state), that in the case they don't mistreat patients to say the least.
More likely you will get out of the hospital damaged or in worse condition than you entered.
Furthermore, politicians that robbed BILLIONS of euros (all of them) are just taken with handcuffs to court and then set free just to complain they were handcuffed.
I, for one, as soon as i leave this country i am not coming back anytime soon; that does not mean i will go to western EU to be named and shamed (mind you most law-offenders from Romania belong to a variety of ethnic groups and therefore are just Romanian citizens, not Romanians with a long lineage - dating thousands of years), but rather i will go to Asia, which is in full development, and where i could make a lot of money and even start a business.
 
 
OMG! I started about UK and went way astray; now to get back on track.
 
Best way to decide is to analyze FACTS - not what one says or what one thinks or w/e, because, as someone was saying, "i fear there are more stupid people in the world than there are smart".
 
Other than that, filter the facts through your personality, because it should be YOUR decision and is all easy.
 
I liked how mixe talked about the what i call "oil invasions", that led to the Syria refugee crysis or someone else was talking about truth about Greece.
 
As a final note, truth is being heavily censored today - even by big networks such as CNN - you know how they "cut" any live criticism towards USA invasion policy (not that i defend Russia's invasion policy by any means).
 
I hope all turns out best for you, in Romania the markets were flooded with low quality food from the EU (due to no more import fees i guess) which ruined a ton of small producers in here; plus i am no fan of losing sovereignty and just being a province of a bigger state called E.U. - Stalin and Hitler would of been proud of this invention; plus the Euro currency allows for total control of any country's finances, paralyzing it at will if needed.

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#28 Poison

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Posted 17 June 2016 - 09:14 am

VOTE LEAVE

 

There is no good reason for us to stay in the EU.

 

I would rather have my country back and no amount of scaremongering will change that.

 

I couldn't attach the document so I have typed it out, I think it sums everything up nicely:

 

THE EU IS NOT A DEMOCRACY !

 

If on June 23rd you vote to stay in the EU you will:

 

- Surrender FOR ALL TIME your right to govern yourselves

- Surrender your CHILDRENS BIRTHRIGHT to a foreign power!

- Surrender any CONTROL over our communal life, finances, land, resources and borders

- Be forever RULED by UNELECTED bureaucrats following their own private agenda - not yours!!!

 

These are indisputable facts:

 

EVERYTHING ELSE IS A 'MAYBE'!


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#29 Darkademic

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Posted 17 June 2016 - 09:37 am

Another good video:

 


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#30 Salamol

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Posted 17 June 2016 - 09:50 am

If on June 23rd you vote to stay in the EU you will:
 
- Surrender FOR ALL TIME your right to govern yourselves

...
 
These are indisputable facts:


Except that we can call another referendum whenever we want if the EU truly goes tits up in the future. Therefore that's not an undisputable fact. I would question then, why you (or whoever wrote that) needs to make it so clear that this is urgent and that it's a one time deal.

If the EU does not go tits up, then there will not be another referendum. Leave knows this, that's why it has to paint as negative a picture of the EU as possible, this could well be their only chance.

I think I might just sit on the fence and argue against everything -.-
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#31 Darkademic

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Posted 17 June 2016 - 10:00 am

Except that we can call another referendum whenever we want if the EU truly goes tits up in the future. Therefore that's not an undisputable fact. I would question then, why you (or whoever wrote that) needs to make it so clear that this is urgent and that it's a one time deal.

If the EU does not go tits up, then there will not be another referendum. Leave knows this, that's why it has to paint as negative a picture of the EU as possible, this could well be their only chance.

I think I might just sit on the fence and argue against everything -.-

 

:) Well actually this might be the last chance to leave period; mentioned in the video in my last post.

 

The chances of another referendum in the near future are slim. And by the time the results of such a referendum were finally implemented I'd probably be dead or too old to care anymore.


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#32 Poison

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Posted 17 June 2016 - 11:10 am

If we vote to stay in the EU would put in legislation making it very very difficult for any member state to ever have a referendum again. They say we can have a referendum if there is ever treaty change, however the EU have a habit of implementing new rules bypassing treaty change hence not ever triggering another referendum.

 

My only question to anyone thinking about voting to remain is ' If we were not already members of the EU would you join now?' I think most people would answer that with a resounding 'no'.

 

For example Switzerland were applying to join the EU but have withdrawn their application. I wander why? Is it that they can see it has no benefit to them and is a failing project ?

 

VOTE LEAVE and take back your country


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